twicketface | I suppose my greatest disappointment is that the Fat Boys only made the one movie.

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I suppose my greatest disappointment is that the Fat Boys only made the one movie.

As you probably know, the Senate is debating the merits of an amendment to ban gay marriage. I find this to be utterly ridiculous and here's why.

First of all, sexual orientation is not a choice. I didn't choose to be heterosexual any more than a gay person chooses to be homosexual. It may be a lifestyle that you disagree with, but making it illegal won't stop it. All people deserve equality. Plain and simple. Making gay marriage illegal won't mean that there won't be gay people anymore. They'll still fall in love, date, live together, raise children and so forth. An amendment to prevent rights to certain groups of people is a dangerous precedent to set.

Look, I don't drink. But it's not my goal to prevent everyone from drinking just because I don't. Prohibition didn't work at stopping people from consuming alcohol and banning gay marriage won't stop gay people from being together. If you don't like it, don't do it.

Those who point to the Bible and say that it's wrong are justified in doing so, if that's what they believe. But all that should mean is that THEIR church of THEIR denomination doesn't perform gay marriages. The church I go to believes in and performs gay marriages, which is one of the reasons we attend services there. As we (theoretically) live in a country that has a separation between church and state, the government shouldn't be using religious reasons to deny gays (or bisexuals or transgendered for that matter) the right to marry. Marriage licenses are issued by the state, not the church.

Those who think that it will negatively impact the sanctity of marriage need to realize that marriage has very little sanctity left, due to how ridiculously easy it is to get married and get divorced. If you want to increase the chances of successful marriage, get involved with pre-marital counseling in your area. My parents did this for four years, counseling couples before they would get married to make sure they knew what they were getting into and to think about the different challenges it will present. Marie and I went through it as well and we both found it to be beneficial. Marriage is not "dating+", it's a commitment to another person, through thick and thin, forever. FOREVER. And there's nothing to say that two people of the same sex can't have that level of commitment to each other - they've never even been given the chance.

Besides, I find the idea of a man and a ferret getting married to be adorable.

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My thoughts on gay marriage are the same as my thoughts on gays raising children. They can't screw it up any more than heterosexuals already have.

you rule!

:)
preach it!

SECONDED!

By the way ... what IS all this bullcrap about the "sanctity of marriage" ... what does that even mean? I can't think of any translation for that phrase which doesn't turn the argument into "I don't like gay people."

Have I told you lately that I love your icon?

NO! YOU HAVE NOT!

THANK GOODNESS IT IS NOT THAT HORRIBLE ONE OF THE BLACK CHILD EATING!

I think the sanctity of marriage has to do with the depth of commitment involved, and the sincerity to adhere to those vows. Apparently, only straight people know how to do that. Allowing gays to marry would completely undermine this sanctity, and would result in people divorcing, families falling apart, and -

Oh, wait.

I have absolutely no problem with gay people. In fact, most of my friends are gay. I do, however, have issue with gay marriage. And I simply have not found a way to properly convey my concerns to where the other person understands it.

It's a hard place to be, too. I'm absolutely for committed homosexual couples having benefits, the same as heterosexual families. And I'm happy that more and more companies are offering those to same-sex relationships.

This is making no sense, is it? I'm going to stop now. :-D

Is it the term 'marriage' that's the issue for you?

I suppose that running with as many gay people as I do has torn me down the middle on the issue. Of all the gay people I know (and the number is pretty up there, mind you), only 2 have managed to make long term relationships work. I am one of the "sanctity protection" people. And my problem with it lies in the fact that yes, straight people cannot be trusted to protect the sanctity of marriage any longer. I'm not going to trust a bunch of gay people looking to make a point, too.

It sounds harsher than I mean it to. I just hate the state of relationships nowadays. People no longer work at them. And I think they're one of the most beautiful things we can work toward - a harmonious union. All of my gay friends stay committed for what they call "a hot minute" - which means until a better looking boy/girl asks for oral treatment in the bathroom at the club. It disheartens me to hear about incidents like that every 5 minutes.

Do you hate me? I'm pro-choice. Does that restore any measure of affection for me as a person? :-D

I think it's more an indication of society, as I know many straight people who are the same way. I guess I see it as incenting relationship-jumping in homosexuals by banning gay marriage. If you knew you couldn't ever be married, would you be as likely to commit to someone?

And I'd much rather have people who visit here with opposing viewpoints than preaching to the choir each time. I'm more than willing to admit when I'm not right (eek!) and think that we all exist in the search for truth. It's our duty to help others find truth via dialogue and experiences.

I guess I can see valid points in both the "fors" and the "againsts." I'm constantly torn on every issue, because I'm a strange mix of extreme conservative and extreme liberal ideas and beliefs.

My family is from Texas. And southern Baptist/Assemblies of God. Know how fun that is? ;-) I'd say I'm doing well to not have turned out like them.

It must make for interesting dinner conversation :)

As long as you're thinking for yourself, it's all good.

All of my gay friends stay committed for what they call "a hot minute" ...

That just sounds like all your friends are immature and don't know what they want. Or maybe they DO know what they want ... some people are just like that.

But that's not an inherently gay trait.
It's an inherently human trait.

I agree with you 100% that people don't seem to really work at relationships anymore. Everything is so much more out in the open.

But, again, this has nothing to do with gay/straight.

Oh, I agree that it's not an inherently gay trait. I didn't mean to fully imply that. And, it must be taken into account that I'm dealing primarily within the gay clubbing community. We know how mature any bar fly crowd is.

I suppose I don't know how to fully express my stance on this matter. I know what I mean, I just can't properly say what I mean.

Of all the gay people I know (and the number is pretty up there, mind you), only 2 have managed to make long term relationships work.

I sometimes wonder if stuff like this is due to the fact that gays don't always have a lot of acceptance in society. I think they're constantly bearing the implication that you chose to be this way and should "be straight". Since they know this isn't a choice and can't conform, I think they're kind of bumbling and trying to make their own sort of rules. Does that make sense?

I also think that growing up gay has to be a very difficult and often painful experience. I'd imagine one gets very used to rejection or at least the idea of being rejected, especially during any coming out phase. That's not particularly conducive to forming healthy long term relationships.

But, I think that's just heterosexism in action. If we weren't a homophobic culture, there could be a lot more stable gay relationships.

That being said, I know quite a few lesbians who have been together 10+ years.

I wonder if the current crop of shows with openly gay characters on them (Queer Eye, Queer as Folk, etc) is doing more harm than good, as they are promoting themselves solely based on the sexuality of the characters.

I think all too often people, as silly as it sounds, believe the stereotypes of television until they learn otherwise, if they ever do. So if you grow up believing that gay people are a certain way without ever having met one, it's like homophobia is almost inevitable.

I love Queer As Folk. It's a bunch of hot guys making out. It's better than internet porn! Even though the shows aren't representing homosexuality realistically yet, we've still come a long way.

There are a ton of things that I only know about from watching TV. E.g. police investigations, dead bodies, what a car exploding looks like, what gunfire looks like, how a trial goes, etc. I think that's a very valid argument.

I went through a phase where I thought it was really normal for women to keep a shirt on during sex. I wondered if I was being odd by not doing that. Then I realized that only women on TV or in the movies do that because they don't want the world to see their breastests.

I was president of the gay club at my college.

I think that progress is being made, but not at the rate in which I expected for the 21st century.

But then again, I'm still pissed that we don't have personal jetpacks yet.

And *I* want to see their breastests!

I think they should just outright ban all Hollywood marriages. If they want to protect the sanctity of the act, that‘s where they should start. I personally would like to protect the sanctity of our democracy instead of trying to cutoff another minority from the equality by which we were all created with. How about an amendment banning the White House from ever giving false information to the public, but that’s just me.

How about an amendment banning those who've worked for defense contractors from working in any president's administration?

Dick Cheney frightens me much more than two lesbians wanting to get health care.

Agreed ~~100%~~...okay, more like 95%, considering the ferrett bit at the end. :)

I hadn't heard of pre-marital counseling before, but I'm so glad it exists! That's wonderful. I'm totally doing that before I get married.

- ♥ -

The Catholic church requires this (well, among other things) for members to be married in their church. I hear that they bring up really commonplace stuff that seems so obvious, but that might not come up before vows are exchanged. For instance, viewpoints on spending and children (to have, not to have; how they'll be raised) are brought up. Couples can find out whether or not they have the same ideas.

Yup. My parents actually counseled a couple who hadn't discussed if they wanted children (she did, he didn't). They didn't get hitched.

Wow. I've heard of people disagreeing on the number of kids to have, but not whether or not to have any. Do you know if that couple just hadn't dated very long? I can't imagine being together for a longer length of time and not having that come up.

I know - it was pretty crazy. I don't think they were together for too long, but not like 20 minutes either ;)

It was a very worthwhile experience for Marie and me - we got paired up with a married couple and they talked about the changes that came with marriage, kids, having a house, two careers, etc. They weren't experts, but just more sharing what worked for them. It was great.

I disagree on a few different levels.

First off, the institution of marriage is a Christian principle/concept, stemming from the Bible. As most Christians believe gay marriage to be wrong, it is doubly offending that not only do gays lead a lifestyle contrary to what the Bible predicates is right, they want to solidify that lifestyle with a Biblical concept.

Also, I don't believe sexual orientation is something one is born with; I believe it is a very willful choice. I'm not saying that a man wakes up one days and says, "I'm going to be gay from now on! I choose to!". I believe that Satan is very good at dangling various temptations in front of all people, and the people with less moral upbringing and people that are more susceptible to attacks from Satan are more likely to succumb to the idea that the things they feel might be right for them. Emotions are not fact; just because you feel something doesn't mean it's true. In fact, most of the time, your emotions will lie to you, especially if someone is operating on half- or mis-information.
Where am I going with this again? Oh, right. Another reason that I believe homosexuality to be a choice rather than something pre-destined is because the Bible says it is sin. God is not going to create someone with sin in them and then condemn them for it. God does not mess up. He also says that He will never give us more than we can handle, that He will never allow us to be tempted more than we can handle. There for, He would not give someone a 'gene' that makes him or her gay - because how could s/he overcome or handle the force of a temptation that comes from his or her own body?

I believe that homosexuality is Satan's spin on love, in the sense that Satan's goal is to pervert or twist every good thing God has created. The Bible states in a few places that homosexuality is sin - which means it is a choice - and it is shameful and not to be done. I don't believe the Bible's meaning has changed any in all these years. God never changes. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God - therefor, His Word never changes, either.

I think that if the government wants to issue civil unions to homosexuals, let them. But I'd rather not have them adopt a Christian tradition and principle as their own. Just don't call it 'marriage'. And don't get me wrong - I don't have homosexuals. They're simply people who choose to live a sinful lifestyle. I have things in my life that I continue to do that are sin; how am I any better than they? The answer is 'not at all'. The Bible says that sin is all the same to God - there's no hierarchy of "not-so-bad, kinda bad, and REALLY BAD" sin to God. It's all sin, and equal.

*steps off her little soapbox*

:)

Correction - I don't hate homosexuals.

Finger memory. :P

Hee hee hee. I figured that this was what you meant. It was funny to read that you don't "have" any, though. I mean, everybody should have a pet homosexual! ;)

Out of curiousity, which Bible passages specify that homosexuality is wrong? I'm not trying to belittle your opinion or anything. It's just that the one that specifically pops to mind (Sodom and Gemorrah [which I've probably misspelled horribly]) seems to indicate that God was more irritated with the hearts of the people engaging in the acts.

I'd rather not have them adopt a Christian tradition and principle as their own. Just don't call it 'marriage'.

"Marriage" has already been taken up by the government. If I go out and get married tomorrow it has absolutely nothing to do with religious beliefs unless I want it to. It is, in most ways, exactly the same as the Christian idea of Marriage, however it isn't a church thing; it's a state thing.

It would be interesting to see how the public at large would react to a "marriage" thing being set up that is in all ways identical but was called something different and had nothing to do with religion. I mean ... in my opinion, it already is that way, aside from the name, but if I was told I could get A or B, both of which are the same except for the "religious connotations" of A, I would go for B. I am probably not the only one.

The Bible says that sin is all the same to God - there's no hierarchy of "not-so-bad, kinda bad, and REALLY BAD" sin to God. It's all sin, and equal.

People who make it a life-point to "sin against god" get married all the time. What about two Buddhists getting married in our country. They're actively worshiping false idols ... they probably mucked up the marriage ceremony with all of that, too. But it's still perfectly legal and nobody questions it.

a point on which you are incorrect is that marriage "is a Christian principle/concept, stemming from the Bible". a GREAT MANY religions include marriage within their traditions, and speaking from EVERY basic scientific perspective, christianity was not the first religion to exist.

i also find it personally interesting that a religious individual would use a phrase like, "just because you feel something doesn't mean it's true." where does your personal truth about god come, if not from your feeling a certain way??

Marriage also predates Christianity. The Ancient Greeks got married. Think about Odysseus and Penelope.

uhh, yeah, that's pretty much exactly what i said.

First off, the institution of marriage is a Christian principle/concept

Are you stating that marriage is a Christian invention? If so, can you corroborate this with the appropriate Bible verse?

God is not going to create someone with sin in them and then condemn them for it.

"Everyone has turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one." (Psalms 53:3)

"All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6)

"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23)

The Bible states in a few places that homosexuality is sin

"...in the New Testament it is only Paul who has anything significant to say about homosexuality. This is a striking feature for surely if homosexuality is so abhorrent to God then one would expect to find Jesus, God's Son (actually God on earth), making a comment on this issue. Instead we find Jesus says nothing."

I don't have (sic) homosexuals. They're simply people who choose to live a sinful lifestyle.

Every time I hear this party line parroted almost verbatim I fail to believe it, and I don't believe it this time.

The Bible says that sin is all the same to God - there's no hierarchy of "not-so-bad, kinda bad, and REALLY BAD" sin to God. It's all sin, and equal.

So gay is murder, then. Good to know.

http://www.faithnet.org.uk/Theology/bibleandhomosexuality.htm

First off, the institution of marriage is a Christian principle/concept, stemming from the Bible.

I've seen no evidence that marriage originated with Christianity - do you have a source for this? My understanding is that lots of people got married before Biblical times.

I believe that Satan is very good at dangling various temptations in front of all people, and the people with less moral upbringing and people that are more susceptible to attacks from Satan are more likely to succumb to the idea that the things they feel might be right for them.

So people who are 'morally inferior' are the ones who sin? Later on, you claim that all sin is equal (The Bible says that sin is all the same to God - there's no hierarchy of "not-so-bad, kinda bad, and REALLY BAD" sin to God. It's all sin, and equal.). If that's the case, since everyone sins, does it really matter? I don't think you can avoid sin, no matter how hard you try or how strong your convictions are. It's unavoidable. It can be minimized, but not eradicated.

God is not going to create someone with sin in them and then condemn them for it.
Isn't that what original sin is? Aren't we all created with sin in them until we are baptized?

God never changes. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God - therefor, His Word never changes, either.

I'm by no means a bible scholar, but aren't there lots of things in the bible that were once accepted as God's Word that have since been changed? Slavery (Exodus 21:7 and Lev. 25:44), not wearing garments that are made of two different materials (Lev. 19:19), even cutting your hair (Lev. 19:27) are all mentioned in the Bible, but we don't follow those 'rules' anymore.

It's all sin, and equal.

If you're essentially saying that all sin is the same, then again, what does it matter? Picture two people - one who lives a gay lifestyle and one who steals from his employer. In the end, if they're treated the same, so what? Aren't we better off as a society if people engage in non-harmful sins (the gay lifestyle) as opposed to other, more detrimental sins?

I am just trying to understand where you are coming from and I really appreciate you commenting - it's not always easy to disagree with someone and hope this has been more pleasant than your experiences in

debate!

You make all the right points.

...I don't expect people to agree with me on all social, political, economic, or spiritual issues- but I do expect people to pay attention to evidence, facts and logic.

It's simply irrefutable:

1. Marriage is already "decaying" from its traditional definition(s)- that meaning it's changed repeatedly throughout history.

2. The intended principles of marriage can be followed by ANY TWO ADULTS in love without having an adverse effect on ANYBODY.

3. There are too many "Christian" points of view for anyone to claim that they know what God thinks.

...and that's all that matters.

...I think we're only a generation away from people in this country having a clue as far as this is concerned... let's hope this ban ends up on the dung heap of history!

C

I fully agree. Which is really boring for your debate, i know.

Marriage is not a purely religious institution anymore. People who are not religious still marry, and it follows that gay people should be allowed to be 'married' even if the religion condems homosexuality, which a lot of churches don't anymore.

Or call it something different and be done with it. Just build a bridge and get over it :p

Actually, as my 7-year-old cousin put it, it's "Cry me a river, build me a bridge and get over it".

Kids today!

I'm leaving a comment based on your subject line, and not the actual subject matter. Isn't Disorderlies a great freakin' movie?!?!?

It is hilarious.

My brother had one of their tapes and all I remember from it is that they had a song called "My Nuts".

Also, they had a song (in which they were figuring out how much food they ate) on the PBS show "Square One" in which I learned:
"One thousand times one million
That's one billion!"

Amen! Very well said.

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I suppose my greatest disappointment is that the Fat Boys only made the one movie.

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Agree to disagree...

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screwed up a link

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